have been totally violated. >> good morning. and welcome to "am joy." republican senator johnny erns of iowa held her roost and ride rally and donald trump showed up and made a pitch to black voters and called hillary clinton a bigot. on friday evening joni ernst advised him to back down from a civil discourse and this was his take on civility. >> she's pledging to abolish the law-making powers of congress and assume the powers of an imperial leader. she's not an impeelar leader. i don't think so. she doesn't even look presidential to me. she certainly doesn't. >> trump is tied with clinton in the latest iowa poll conducted by cbs news and nationally new polling from the l.a. times has
clinton up by two points, 45% to 43% and the latest quinnipiac showed her with a double-digit lead with 51% over 41%. and they said the polls are meaningless because those who support trump are apparently embarrassed to admit it. >> if you are a college-educated person in america to say you are against trump. the hidden trump is in this country. >> and you have been able to put a number on that. >> yes. >> what do you think that is. >> i can't discuss it. it is a project we're doing internally to recover the undercover trump vouters. >> so will the undercover voters reveal themselves. joining me michelle barnett and jay newton smaul and michelle,
do you believe this exists. i've talked about the possibility of trump because he is associated with racial intel ranc and do you think it exists. >> it is anecdotal. and for example i was at a kid's soccer games and i listened to kids talk about the primaries in the state of maryland and all of the little kids, the moms votes for hillary clinton and the dads voting for trump. and his tax policy would be great for me or great for my business, this would be great for things that affect them personally. but they don't want to admit that they plan on voting for him. >> and e.j., there is this phenomenon where trump is doing well with evangelical and despite his past and his multiple marriages and not showing the values of religious americans overtly so it does seem there is avote out there
available to him that is an apparent but is it enough to swing the election. >> i love the idea of the undercover trump voter, i picture millions of people with trench coats looking like spies from 40 years ago. i'm a skeptic about the undercover trump vote, there are possibly a few people in that category but if you look back at the polls, people did studies of when there was a secret trump vote and they had trouble finding it. so i think that that kelly anne conway will be disappointed and one of the reasons she can't reveal the complicated methodology, is because i don't believe it exists. yes, there is social pressure in the upper middle class not to be for trump but i would be surprised if you see a surgeon election day.
>> and tony fab rizzio said one of the reasons that kelly anne was promoted over him essentially is that he was telling trump we are losing. he was telling him things in a harsh way, that she was able to soft pedal and not admitting to him they're doing as badly. one of the reasons for the idea that people think this is socially unacceptable is trump's history. "the new york times" came out with a report that is rereporting things we didn't know about trump history with housing discrimination. no vacancies for african-americans and he was -- and there was a lawsuit against the nixon administration accusing him of violating the fair housing act. how much do you think reracking this story will impact potential voters who might like his idea on taxes but not want to be associated with this. >> if there is an undercover voter and this is something that
kelly anne does specialize in, the women who want to vote for trump but don't like the thought of voting for a bigot. but this is really him trying to get to the suburban white women vote and i'm reaching out to them, i'm not a bigot, vote for me, it is all good and i don't think he will get the african-american vote, i think he is polling like 1% or 2% nationally, but the problem with stories like this with "the new york times" is that it is undermining that mean for him. he is saying i'm fine and i'm not a bigot and stories come out in "the new york times" and your company and your father and you and a history of being bigot. >> and putting in for color on the application. >> most of this is aimed at more moderate middle class voters, particularly women.
he might try to bump his share of the african-american vote up to 11% which is where bush was, which is a huge improvement on where he is now but stories like this remind people of, a., he was a birther and what was birtherism, saying he was born in kenya or france or italy or -- but it was kenya. we know what is going on there. and the very appeal to the black community said all african-american lives in hell holes, can't work and this, i think, reads really badly for whatever african-americans might vote for him or conservatives, these are people who know -- a black upper middle class and upper class and warden class and i think this sends a signal to his base-base, i don't know how it reaches the african-american. >> let's tell you a little bit
about donald trump and we'll listen to him talking about housing and minorities. >> we also have to talk about the millions of african-americans who remain trapped in poverty and in failing schools. as a father, as a builder, as an american, it offends my sense of right and wrong to see anyone living in such conditions. african-american citizens, we have to help. we have to stop the crime. we have to stop the bad education. we have to help with housing. we have to solve our inner city problems and we will, i will fix it. >> and some trump fans said that is impressed with him, is ice cube and he had some thoughts -- we won't read it because it is sunday, thank you, jesus, but some are saying that communities like where yourself and i live are just hell. how do we crawl through the muck
and zombies to get here this morning. we didn't have to use our ak and today was a good day. to quote from -- >> his statement was so absolutely paternalistic and anti-conservative and anti-republican when they say we have to help african-americans and we hear from the right, pull yourself up by the bootstraps and personal responsibility and most african-americans are looking at trump and saying i don't need your help. but it is interesting, i don't know if you saw or read an article but there was an article in the new yorkers many months ago that said trump was a rapper and if you look at the people that he was associating once, people like p. diddy or puffy or whoever you might have referred to him, one generation to another, these were the people that he hung out with and you don't see russell simons
endorsing or p. diddy endorsing trump and the only african-american is anna rosa manna gold and she had a relationship with her that is different. and i asked her as an african-american how do you support him and her answer in the past is not so much that she supports him but don't we have a responsibility to listen to what he said and to what he has to offer and based on what i'm watching, all i can think is he has nothing to offer the african-american community, no whatter what your socioeconomic status is, because what he offers is help. >> and he did associate and hang around with hip-hop singers or mike tyson and wealthy african-americans and exempted from -- >> like you are okay. you are an exception to the rule. >> but not only are those folks not supporting him, e.j., you don't see them coming out, it does make the point that -- that donald trump's support for the african-american community is
skewed. he is talking about poverty. but his only experience is with african-americans that are wealthy. isn't it an anti-conservative message to say all black people are in poverty when he has only experienced people -- black people with money. >> not only money but highly educated people that are respected all over the world. and he feels so comfortable making the kind of statements that he makes that give the impression that we live in absolute unadulterated squalor. >> and that is why in this case and in so many cases, you get the sense that trump is saying a bunch of words designed to solve a political problem that he has almost no connection to himself. i was struck by one of his aides who said, oh, he's not changing his position on immigration, he's just changing the word. what in the world does that mean? and in that case, by describing
the hell hole here and saying basically implying that all african-americans are here, he is feeding a vision that the most white wing of his supporters believe about the african-american community but trying to make it sound like it is compassionate. so it is -- i think it is too complicated a political ploy to work. >> and that is another point. you have a disconnect of what people think of african-american people and people of color and how they actually live. so is he actually feeding a part of the republican base that may believe that most african-americans are in poverty and squalor, so they hear that in a different way. >> to, totally. and it is feeding a stereo type and it is very paternalist. >> and that appeals to the women voters and remember when there was the murder of the woman in california by an undocumented migrant and he sort of became this paternalistic guy, like i'm
going to protect you from rapist and murderers and he's building a wall around you and so it furthers the idea that they are contained in this area. >> i'll protect you. >> we don't have time. >> one consistency in donald trump, whatever the problem is, i trump will fix it. don't worry about what i will say. >> i think about the robert costa et al was that people could identify with his ostentatious life sile. >> i forgot to wear any gold chain. >> thank you very much. e.j. and they will be back with us later. there is much more after the break. stay with us. hey, it's the phillips' lady!
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just yesterday, the cousin of nba star dwyane wade, a great guy, dwyane wade, was the victim of a tragic shooting in chicago. she was the mother of four, and was killed while pushing her infant child in a stroller just walking down the street. shot. it breaks all of our hearts to see it. it is horrible. it's horrible. and it is only getting worse. this shouldn't happen in our country, this shouldn't happen in america. >> the third time was the charm for donald trump at trying to express sincere sympathy for the death of dwyane wade's cousin because what was shocking was his first response which sparked a backlash when he tweeted this, dwyane wade's cousin was just shot and killed walking her baby in chicago.
just what i have been saying. african-americans will vote, all caps, trump. and this time wade's name spelled correctly and followed by a second tweet with a tone that said my condolences to dwyane wade and his family on the loss of nykea aldridge and they are in my thoughts and prayers. and from the salem network and hugh hewitt and jay newton small and i grabbed hugh and i pulled him up here so i'll start with you and so people have deconstructed the way trump comes from, when it comes from an android, it is him and from an iphone, it is the campaign. the first tweet was the android tweet, which is vote trump, this is great and misspelled wade's name and then they corrected the name and kept it that way before
kelly anne conway or someone on the campaign changed it to condolences. unforced error or sign of something missing in terms of sensitivity in terms of donald trump, who do you make of it. >> he is very reactive to what he is watching on television. if he doesn't like you, he'll tweet about it and it is not the greatest strength and it is visceral but it does connect with some people. i don't tweet about other people's tragedies. two sisters were murdered in mississippi and i don't tweet about that. and the best advice is show up and shut up. when anyone is bleeding, you want to do things that are sympathy and express em papathyt don't be seen as trying to advance your campaign. >> and the show that happens between the breaks, we talked about the fact that you have african-american celebrities like don cheadle and ice cube
and come out and blast trump. and that is something new in terms of him now attracting even more african-american vitriol that he already had. already at 1%. what do you make othis. >> he starts with the first tweet not even mentioning the name of the nykea. it is disconnected from the condolences and from who is the victim here. and he is doing the exact opposite. he is taking african-americans and making them not want to vote for him. he is referring to all african-americans as low income and in dire straits and as we were talking about, you have a large segment of the wealthy african-american community when he first started saying this is cool. but the big thing with trump we're missing is he doesn't address the underlying policy concerns that are part of this, let's talk about gun violence and the guns in chicago that led to this death. he just talks in big kind of
pandering terms so he is all about pandering and not policy and that is what is happening, too. >> and the tweet was about himself. it was about trump. >> it is like the orlando shooting that happened and he was criticized for being insensitive too and he was like, see, i was right, it is all about me. i will fix this. this is how it affects me, and vote for me and never what can we do to address this or change this policy, what can we do to help this family. and so it is incredibly tone deaf. and does he actually think it will get him votes. you should vote for me. >> he will do less well than romney. because of the shy poll factors and people that don't tell the truth. he can't be polling at 0%. >> margin of error is 3%. >> and mitt romney, he is a friend of mine, he could not
connect with the african-american community and i had to assume that trump would do better but i don't think he will. >> and i don't think he will. and i'll leave you to explain but every pronouncement is part treaty and insult and they are always contained in the same statement. your lives are poor and terrible and i'll help you. and it is paternalistic and being hostile for african-americans who are happy being african-americans and who don't think it is horrible and miserable and something like this, will there was a critique that he could have made, you have the president of the united states who is from chicago, you have gun violence taking place in his own community and there is in theory a critique about gun violence and about a democratic controlled city and he didn't even do that. >> no, he didn't do that. and when he on talking point and this writers are trying to get him to make that determination. and in chicago, 50% of males that are african-american not
working in schools and let's talk about your agenda and that is a message receptive to african-americans but you are poor in dire straits and vote for me and he is not making that connection and let your advisors do the talking if you want to make gains in the african-american community. that is where hillary is doing a great job and we talked about the flood of african-americans surrogates coming toward her because she has a policy and addressing things happening in the african-american community. >> and she gave a speech in harlem when she talked about specific policies and given several speeches and at colombia and mostly in african-american colleges and if trump thinks he has a way of communicating with african-americans, why do you suppose he is not doing that and making these supposedly treaties
to block people but only in front of all white audience. >> when i need to talk about a african-american communities i call up christ the redeemer pastor or at first ame in southern california, through the black church and through black politicians and i call them up and go to their churches and sanctuaries. if i'm donald trump's team, i would find an ame team to welcome me and he did that -- i think the johnson amendment bothers black pastors because they want to be more politically active than even more the most politically active roman catholic priest and thus far he has not found that conduit. >> and i've interviewed two african-american pastors for trump, who people who have churched, to hugh's point, where he could easily show up at his church because they've endorsed him and so there are black
pastors who claim there are hundreds of them total and he hasn't showed up in their churches. >> it is a different campaign. the way his campaigning is done so so completely anti-thet cal and someone would go and visit the latino americans and do outreach to women and other things and he doesn't do any of these things or even do ground game. there is more offices for hillary in the state of ohio than there are in in his entire staff, 160 offices versus 80 staffers for the donald trump campaign. so he doesn't do anything traditionally. he believes by saying this on tv and tweeting and having monster rallies that will win his bet. >> that is inconsistent. he doesn't have african-american friends or except for the high end and he doesn't know the depth and breath of african-american and he was discriminating in housing and
the department of justice had to come in and investigate and he is consistent in learning something he doesn't know what he is doing. >> and he hasn't apologized. and if he could come out and admit to have done something wrong in the area of race. and he hasn't. but hillary clinton has. she's made comments. and his strategy is interesting. and we'll talk about it. more to come. and still to come, trump and the alt-right. using 60,000 points from my chase ink card i bought all the framework... wire... and plants needed to give my shop... a face... no one will forget. see what the power of points can do for your business. learn more at chase.com/ink ...cleasee ya!ake off. see what the power of points can do for your business. when you're living with diabetes. steady is exciting. oh this is living baby! only glucerna has carbsteady,
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well. i'm going to get to know him. >> we're learning his background but it is quite uncomfortable. >> is this the proper background should hire if he is trying to appeal to women, for instance. >> i don't know how much is true and neither do you. i don't speculate on what other third parties say about people, i judge people based on what i see and what i interact with. >> welcome back to "am joy." republican party chairman reince priebus on the campaign's hiring of stephen bannon. he is the trump top gun and targeted by hillary clinton this week. as she made her case that her opponent is embracing the so-called alt-right and an insurgence of krorves and we're joining by daryle jinxin and leon woif.
and i am fascinated by him filt rating and going inside of the hate groups and talk about the alt-right and reince priebus said he doesn't know who he is, who is he? >> he is the editor and ceo of breitbart.c breitbart.com. and breitbart.com is the well from which all of the nonsense springs. i don't call them the alt-right. i call them white supremacists because that is what they are and that is the only way i know -- breitbart is the only way i know breitbart to be because i've been dealing with them since i caught o'keefe at a white supremacist conference and when we broadcast that, breitbart went after us for putting that out. >> and o'keefe is the hit journalist who they would send around and did undercover reports for breitbart.com. >> yes. and mucking up the works for him.
and they just went insane and tried to down-play the story. all we had to do was wait and james o'keefe did it again, he was invited by another group up in providence college to speak, another hate group called youth for western civilization to speak in providence college and the next thing we know we have a picture of that and it said we are going to start looking at this guy as who he is, he is a white supremacist. >> and this is a cut from my viewers at the c-pac conference in 2010 confronting andrew breitbart. take a look. >> are you accusing me of being awhite supremacist. >> i'm accusing you of being a supremacist. >> have a good day. would somebody take this guy out of here, you punk. >> and this is before he got to breitbart.com and so what do you think of bannon for that connection. >> of connecting bannon to --
>> sure. >> what he's done since joining the breitbart -- since he wrote the alt-right -- or excuse me, published that. once you see that, there is no way you could get around it. they have been going after black people of color for years. they have a segment called -- >> they went around shirley sherrod and the mis-fired up the fact that she was racist and et cetera. and hugh, what do you think is the potential risk of linking this group of people, something like bannon, to the republican party? >> let me correct the record. andrew breitbart was a good friend of mine and we worked together and i interviewed him on the day that he died, and rue was not a racist and a good-hearted man and entrepreneur and breitbart.com
is not the same. and there are still good people there. jeff poor who is not a racist. i don't know bannon. i don't read breitbart.com. and i define is much more broadly because it is easy to say they have nothing to do with the republican party and we drove them out in the 50s and they should stay out. the alt-right, some people use to describe people upset with mitch mcconnell and paul ryan and oppose the wall on the border. i call it evil and anti-semites evil and i don't think o'keefe is either but i went to the conferences but we do agree, they have a parallel, for every breitbart and bannon there is a -- >> you think bill mar and david brock. >> bill mar and milo are the same person. and i think that michael moore and ann coulter are the same person and i think that
breitbart and media matters are the same organization. >> i highly doubt that. i'll let you know that -- >> ann has defended groups and defended by ann coulter. >> let me -- i'm going to let you be our referee here. because i highly doubt that there is a correlation between the comediennes that he mentioned or that michael moore made a movie and someone like bannon who the latest allegation is he didn't want his children going to a school where there were too much jews there. i think these are of a very different character. let me say this. >> i don't know stephen bannon but i put zero credit anything behind a divorce filing as an attorney who read billions of these before. i put no credibility in that. and i'm a harsh critic of breitbart.com. i don't think we should pull things out of divorce filing and
say that happened. that has no credibility. but i agree with mr. jenkins said, con terri to what hugh has said, breitbart is a part on white supremacist to call themselves something other than white supremacist. and some have unknowingly grabbed on that and they saw it as edgy on twitter and they want to be part of that. and i think it is a dressed up white supremacist view. and agree there are sun savory elements -- unsavory elements on the left and they are on the right and it doesn't help us to confront what it is. >> and before i come back to the panel. there are efforts in the republican party over the years to try to bring in more people of color. you had the famous autopsy and before that, i know republicans trying to do this in places like south carolina, where they've got a united states senator who is african-american.
this is an actual real effort on the part of the republican party. does this threaten it long-ter?. is this a barry goldwater moment or is that too hyperbolic to think it could damage the party for years to come? >> i think there is really some real risk of that. and i think if you look at what is happening with the hispanic vote in particular, you know, republicans have lost that vote historically but it has been relatively close. we always talk about george w. bush got 44% and mitt romney only got about 25% and john mccain got i think 35% or something like that and that is a survivable number. but if that number becomes similar to what the black vote is in america, which is basically 90-10 democrat, there is a serious problem. and what makes it even worse tan a goldwater moment back in 1964 is that right now hispanics by far the lowest voter participation rate in the country. whites and blocks both vote at
about 64% in this country. hispanics vote at less than 50%. that is the people who are eligible to vote. if that vote becomes not just 90-10 democrat and energized to go out and vote, it could be a serious problem. >> and i'll come back to you on this, daryle, because it is difficult to get arms around how broad this alt-right movement is. and some people want to do it online or on gamer or on redit and how in your view politically influential is this movement and what do they want, do they want political influence. >>? many respects when i see some of the organizations, when i see the national policy institute out there, that is one of the organizations, they've always said they want to try to infiltrate the republican party and turn it into a white party. they say that in their pamphlets. but further than that they want a separation of the races.
they want a state for themself and break up the country. and they are basically using the republican party as a means to that end. and i have to tell you, sir, i have had way too much issues with conservatives that have been trying to play this mad state of denial when it comes to the racism within their party. within their scene. the fact of the matter is, when you see ann coulter look at somebody like a white nationalist as a mentor or defends the counsel of concerned citizens in her book or breitbart or the crowd messing around with -- and there are other names i could bring up. but when you see that over the last 30 years, that means they're going to have a come to jesus moment. >> and when i said that
blumenthal define the party and i don't do that. i just say this -- >> but republicans don't carry their burden. >> the republican party is the party of lincoln. >> and lincoln is dead for 150 years. >> since 1968, i've been involved in republican party politics and watching and actively since '76 and will reject any white supremacist and anti-semite and if you look at mitch mcconnell, they are the leaders, they will reject any charge that -- >> let me ask a quick question and i'll let daryle back in, but we were on "meet the press" this morning and he is not outright rejecting -- and embracing. >> and leon will say you have no way of what is in a divorce filing if it is correct. >> and we do know that -- >> and when i look at leadership
of the party, i look at the house majority whip, he was speaking at the conference. how do we talk about that. >> i think people make mistakes and go to the wrong meetings. >> no. for being in the klan 70 years ago. >> i'll give leon the last word on this and then we have to go. in your view, do you think bannon survives as the chairman of the trump campaign and do you think he makes it through november? >> i think so. i think he's done a relatively good job of keeping his head down. i think kelly anne conway is the face of the campaign and that is a smart move on the campaign part and if this continues, he will survive through the end of the campaign. >> and then continue to be a topic of the conversation. hugh highity and daryle jenkins and leon wolf. thank you. and latest ways the state may block the vote. in the next hour, the author of a new book "trump reveals" and
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my next guest greg palast has been covering for a decade and starting with florida that handed bush the presidency and here is the report he filed for the bdc. >> we're coming into tallahassee. jeb bush country. and we want to know if george w. bush won the election or did brother jeb steal it for him. our investigation suggests that the answer lies in this shuttered building, the capitol and in an expensive contract between jeb and a private company named dbt which accidentally wiped off the voter rolls thousands of democratic voters. >> and when we come back. politics claims that the gop
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this election season we've seen voter i.d., cuts to early voting and now a potentially massive purge of eligible democratic voters. rolling stone reports on a republican orchestrated effort to compile a list of voters who they allege are registered to vote in put pell states and to purge those people from voter registration polls. not all voters are equally affected. the list disproportionately with some of the biggest purges underway in ohio and north carolina. two crucial swing states with tight senate races. and joining me now is the author of that piece, greg palace and from new york, dale hope and thank you for being here. and greg, it is great to talk to you, back in the days when you were investigating the 2000 election and the caging and
purging of voters. what is going on with the latest voter purges. >> we're back to the old -- it is the new jim crow since the end of the voting rights act. donald trump accused and said this election is rigged because people are voting many, many times. don't dismiss that as trump-ism. he has henchmen and operatives in swing states, like in ohio and arizona and north carolina, and what they've done is they've actually said they have lists of people who are voting twice and lists of people who are deliberately reggerstered in two -- registered no two states and they are wiping them off the voting polls. they are criminal double voters. and i'm an old investigator and i've earned my hat and the list, there are 7 million names on the list who are listed as potential duplicate voters. and we went through the list.
i have over a million of the names and it is overwhelmingly voters of color and dig this -- joy, one in seven black voters in those 29 republican states are on their hit list to be removed before the election. one in seven and they are going to remove about a million people by november. they've already started. and it is hundreds of thousands of people already flushed out. you don't know until you show up at polls. you don't know. >> and that is scary. and you crossed that voter data and you found only four voters have been charged with double voting. so this is not a widespread problem they are trying to enforce. and the irony with stephen bannon, whether he is double register the registered in california and florida. and so this is the tact they are taking. if somebody shows up in the polls in ohio where they are not friendly to voters and they are on the caging list and said to be a double voter, what could they do. >> everyone under federal law is
entitled at a minimal to cast the provisional ballot, the poll workers or challenges try to interfere with your voting rights or your name for whatever reason is not on the list of registered voters and you are denied a regular ballot you could cast a provisional ballot under the help america vote act. but i'm troubled here by everyone knows there is not a substantial or epidemic of voter fraud. there is problem like this sweeping the country. but we do have a very real history of people intimidating votersali voters at the polls. they are under a consent decree for using voter intimidation using these caging lists in hispanic and other neighborhoods and i think it is really a significant problem as we look ahead to november. >> and greg, as somebody who has covered this same sort of tactic used over the years, walk us through what they do. how can a party create a list
that then the state -- the state of ohio, has to use to purge voters. >> well let me tell you, chris coback who came up for the way mexico came into muscled into paying for his call. kris kobach has taking the voting polls of 29 republican controlled states and mixed the names together and said if he sees the same name in two different states it must be a double voter or a double registered, and here is an example, maria issa bell hernandez of indiana is the same voter of maria christina hernandez of georgia. that is what they say is a double voter. and it is only the first and last name match. and who is on list. wong, mohammed, johnson and
there are 288 james browns who supposedly voted twice in georgia and in in another state. it is a list of common names. that is all there is to it, and when you have common names you are talking about black and hispanic and asians who are now voting about 75% democratic. this is an ethnic cleansing which has been done out of the public eye. you've had some statements by republican operatives like the republican voting chief of north carolina, the big swing states who said she has absolute evidence that 35,000 people have voted in north carolina and in another state in the same election, he hasn't arrested one but removed people from the voter roll. that is just -- it is an old jim crow tactic, 100 years ago, the build of a nation which was a klu klux klan showing people
casting a second ballot and another dog whistle is even more -- it is being put into effect is the problem, as the purging is in operation as we speak. >> this is really terrifying. we'll have to have you back. i wish we had more time and you add to trump telling supporters to watch the polls, you mix that in in some states like ohio that are an open carry state, this is a scary process. we'll have you back to keep you up to date. and his movie coming out next month and thank to both of you. and up next, i'll talk to the author of a trump revealing new book.
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the kind of thinking you need for this country. >> good morning. and welcome to "am joy." that is how donald trump introduced himself as a presidential candidate 14 long months ago but america has known him for much longer. his rise in the world of business and entertainment and pollices is chroniced in a new book by the washington post, "trump revealed." and his motivation and values are informed by his patients and his upbringing and his victories for his defeats and his life long quest for love and acceptance. and congratulations on a whirp wind project, about how long did it take to put this together. >> about three or four months because we didn't know until about march that he would be the candidate and we had such a short runway we put together 20 reporters from across "the washington post" newsroom and you look into the youth, you look into the education, you look into atlantic city and so on.
and when we put it altogether and interviewed hundreds of people around trump including people who signs nondisclosure agreements with him and the result is i think a really a revealing look at who he is, he is a complicated figure, not the simplistic man that people make him out to be. and we try to understand why he is the way he is. >> and we pulled that quote for the intro because i felt that boiled down what you seem to have revealed in this book. and he seems to crave constant love and acceptance. >> he has this unbridled ego, whether you like him or hate him, everyone recognizes and we try to say where does that come from. he grew up with a cold and distant father and a mother into performance and pageantry and a great admirer of the british royals and he put that together with his father who told him you must not be a nothing, you must
achieve something and you combine with the love of pageantry and performance with his mother and you get someone who wanted to jump from the next level from his father's work as a real estate developer in brooklyn and queens and he wanted to cross the bridge into manhattan and be on the biggest stages of all and make it there as no one else has before. >> and he seems to crave or have an almost sort of a sense that he is not respected by the manhattan elite and he is queens rich and he changed after his early success and a excerpt from your book, and according to barbara rez who is head of the construction at trump tower, my god mother worked there, the mood around trump began to change. he surrounded himself with sycophants who applauded his moves rather than questioned his logic. >> and he has during the course of the his career, he has gone on and moved away from the sense of confidence of wanting people to challenge him and that he had in the early years and now he in later years people who worked for him, he wanted people who
weren'quite as up to snuff, not as smart as he was which is an interesting way to select people around him. and if you look at people who ran his campaign in the early days, they were all neophytes, with no political experience to speak of in the past. >> and trump seems to need people to think that he is rich. we played that clip but he emphasized that and you talk about it in the book. >> there is an interesting dichotomy, and he wants everyone to know that, that is an important part of his image and wants people to aspire to be like him but he thought of himself as a man of the people and he like to be a provaka tour, he was a rich kid growing up but tried to live that down by being the guy being with the construction guys. >> and he loved fast food. >> yes. >> and you talk about the 1976 profile of donald trump and he told "the new york times" he's worth more than $200 million and
the quote is is he tall and lean and blond and dazzling white team and he looks ever so much like robert red ford and he rides around town in a chaufured and he reported an in come in 1976 of $24,594. >> and he had been given money by his father and what this indicates is is he was already on the way toward the life of exaggeration, what he called truthful hyperbole and he takes a germ of truth and expands it. and there is so much question about how much he is worth. he talks about $10 billion or $20 billion and when he was confronted and said how do you come up with assessment through the property that the government
says may be worth $100 million and you say worth is $400 million and what he said was, i do what i feel. and so on any given day, i may feel the value of my name is two or three four times what the government said the property is worth. so essentially he makes it up. and he justified that by saying correctly his name has real value and clients come to him with the trump name on it but the number he attaches is genuinely made up. >> and as a journalist and co-author of the book, whether or not the reason he is refusing to release his tax returns that would reveal the truth about his wealth and it might not be what it is. >> and that is one -- we don't know because we don't have the tax returns. the last time he did was he hadn't paid taxes. and that is legal for somebody of that wealth, they could do all kinds of things to reduce the tax bill so it could show he hasn't paid taxes or low taxes or he hasn't made the charitable
donations that he's made but we don't know that until -- >> and the other theme in the book is the sort of the way that donald trump treats the people that do business for him and work for him and we interviewed a documentary filmmaker that included this, the people that worked on trump tower before, converting it and you talk about the undocumented polish workers and the men who demolished the old building toils through the spring and summer of 1980 with hammers and blowtorches without hard hats and working 12 to 18 hour days and paid in $5 an hour and sometimes with vot vodka and many went uneaten and were threatened. >> in later years when he was confronted with the story, he said i didn't know about it.
and he did know about it because he visited the works on the site and confronted the situation that they did complain about that that time and led to unfair laborle ga allegations and so h very much aware of it. >> and he talked about denying housing or renters who are black putting c. for color on the application and his father and he engaging in that -- and is that something he acknowledged. >> he acknowledged it with the u.s. justice department and he acknowledged it and didn't say that he had done wrong or violated the law but agreed not to do it any more and take out the advertisements in the new york newspapers pledging they would not conduct that kind of discrimination and there is documentation showing that they would attach either number nine or c. for colored to the applicants from black would-be tenants or steer them to other lesser desirable buildings.
>> and donald trump in his -- the way that he responds to things by a tweet, tweeted that your book, his response in "the washington post" put together a hit job book on me comprised of some of their inaccurate stories. don't buy -- boring. and what kind of president would they be elected if they put trump in the white house. >> what it is through his life that led to the personality that we see. how does he make decisions or take in information. i asked him, how do you act as president, how would you make decisions and he said, i don't like to read long reports or briefings or anything like that. i go from the gut. he's very much a believer in his own instinct. so we get at the decision-making or the ego that we talked about earlier or the history of why he likes to insult and offend and why he finds that effective. and so that is an important part of how he connects with people and has been throughout his career. and we get an interestingly --
"the apprentice" transformed him into a businessman into a political figure. >> into a celebrity and which is what he craves, the attention and it is interesting to look at the trump brand after the campaign and the racial stuff swelling up around him. very interesting book. marc fisher, thank you for being here. and it is available in print right now. hard cover. next, what does the clinton foundation do exactly and is it all aboveboard in officials from the foundation will join me live. stay tuned. ♪ hey, is this our turn? honey...our turn? yeah, we go left right here. (woman vo) great adventures are still out there. we'll find them in our subaru outback. (avo) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. get zero percent on select subaru models during the subaru a lot to love event, now through august thirty-first.
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clinton and her pay for play state department and other things. now it was just announced that her important calendar records will not be released, even though they have them, to the public until after the election. it is hard to tell where the clinton foundation ends and where the state department begins. >> donald trump is continuing the drum beat of attacks around the hillary clinton charitable foundation. the fire storm hitting the campaign is fueled by an associated press report concerning whether foundation donors got special access to the state department. they called it grossly unfair and inaccurate and foundation supporters say it is obscuring the foundation's valuable mission and joining me now is craig maissain and jonathan capehart from the national post.
and jonathan, i'll start with you, because what is lost in the web of stories is what is the clinton foundation is and does. uld you tell us. >> sure. it is an important point. we are an operating foundationch and if you are not familiar with how foundations work, that means we are doing the work ourselves. 88% of the budget goes to implementing programs that help people all over the world. sometimes with partners and dependingond wh depending on what we are trying to achieve we -- >> so -- go on. >> some of the programs is we're combatting hiv and aids and we're helping farmers in east africa live better lives and training entrepreneurs in latin america to get out of poverty and here in united states there are 18 million school kids who have healthier school food options to combat childhood
obesity. and there is a broad spectrum and that leads to part of the confusion and there is a lack of understanding about how many big foundations work generally. >> and if i were, let's say, from a foreign government or the government of kuwait and i give a big check to the clinton foundation, why might i do that and what would happen to my money and would would i get? >> keep in mind we have 330,000 donors and they are not the countries that people tend to criticize us from. and what we know from the donors large and small is they are interested in impactful work. in australia, they have a whole program that just funds aids work and so they look for funds for the work. and you are familiar with uniaid and that have programs set up to address climate change. and that is what we are talking
about with foreign governments and for all of the donors is how do we make a difference and what organizations could we work with and do they do impactful work and i don't think anybody is questioning the quality of our work. >> and how much do bill and chelsea and mrs. clinton benefit from earning or owning the foundation? do they earn any money from it? >> no. i'm sorry. i thought you were asking -- and none of them take a salary and don't profit from the foundation. >> so jonathan, one of the sort of allegations here is that if i'm, let's say a wealthy person and i write you a $100,000 check and that means when i call up the state department, i could get my calls returned, houuma abedin will return my call and in your review is that pay for play? >> no. they call the state department and demand that something happen and that want to happen, happen.
we have not seen any evidence of that at all. and let's keep something else in mind. when president clinton left the white house, he is one of the youngest former presidents in history and one of the most popular presidents leaving the white house and everyone wondered what will he do with that popularity and they started what was the clinton foundation and did good works around the world. when people give hundreds of thousands of dollars the countries and the corporations and the individuals, yes, some of them might be giving money to curry favor with a former popular former president, wanting to be near bill clinton, wanting to be near the clintons and let's keep in mind, he, she, they, are among the most popular people in the world and people want to be near them but people giving money to the clinton foundation are giving money because they do good work. as craig said, there is -- find me a story that said that the
clinton foundation and what they do, the programs that they support, the things that they are doing around the world, have not helped people. have not helped save lives. have not done good things. >> well let me play hillary clinton defending the foundation. she was on morning joe this past week and i'll come back to you on this, but this is what she said defending the clinton foundation and this is from our producers. let's take a listen. >> i appreciate, you know, the concerns that people have expressed and that is why i've made it clear that if i'm successful in november, we are going to be taking additional steps. but the fact is winding down some of the programs takes time. i think that the work has been not only transformational but it has been in line with american interests and values. >> if in fact, the work is transformational and in line with american values and
everything is clear and aboveboard and where would the clintons say they are going to wind the programs down? >> well we're not saying we're going to wind them down but transition them to partners to make sure we could continue to help people but do it appropriately. when she was secretary of state, there was a mechanism in place to make sure there wasn't a conflict of interest. and we know there was an agreement with the obama administration and it was a recognition that the work was helping people and they wanted to make sure we could continue to do it. >> and craig, let me ask you this question. during the george w. bush administration, the george h.w. bush foundation, his library foundation operated all eight years and could take foreign donations and they were secret and we don't know who the donors were and it managed to operate throughout the term without question of the media but it didn't wind down. if this is not different from
that, if this is a foundation doing independent good work and nothing wrong with it, it begs the question, why kind it down? why would you need to change the operation, does that imply that even the foundation that the former president's involvement would be problematic. >> no. and again, we're not trying to wind it down, we're transitioning the program. there is a different media environment, a different -- a different set of criticisms and critiques that have gone on about the foundation and we're very cognizant of that. and the environment has totally changed since president bush was in office. so what we're trying to do is make sure the work could continue and help people while not creating a perception issue for secretary clinton if she becomes the president. now critics have said, why don't you stop it now and why didn't you stop it then. our point of view is to stop things now would be needlessly hurting people while presuming the outcome of an election.
so what we're doing is saying we know there are perception issues. we know that the way to alleviate them is to reevaluate our funding sources and once we do that we'll make sure that the programs could continue. but remember, some people forget this, but presidential foundations, including president bush, are responsible for operating their presidential center and libraries and that is something organizations have to fund raise for. there is domestic work that is funded into the future some of the domestic help work so that is kind of the responsible evaluation that we're going through, to say, what could be better off living spare else so there is not a perception issue and make sure that people are better in work and are we the ones that are best suited to continue doing within the funding changes that we've had. >> and so jonathan, the idea it is a different media environment is true and it is a different
media environment when it is the clintons. and they'll continue to push -- probably continue to file lawsuits and file about the clinton foundation as long as it is still called the clinton foundation. are we in for four years or eight years of ongoing stories about this foundation so long as it continues to exist. >> sure. because as you said it is the clintons and when people look at the clintons, they look athem as if they are looking at them through a fun house mirror. everybody they do, their motivations are questioned from a nefarious point of view. and picking up on the h.w. bush foundation and the difference here is not only the media environment, but the h.w. bush foundation and president george w. bush, two separate people. george w. bush not involved with that. the difference with the clinton foundation is that hillary clinton's name is now on the foundation, bill and chelsea and hillary clinton foundation and so i think it is wise for the clinton foundation to set up, if she is indeed elected, to do
everything possible out of an abundance of caution to ensure that no one can legitimately say that the foundation is doing things and getting special favors because the president of the united states happens to also be a part of that foundation in some way. >> and it is unprecedented and her spouse being a former president is a big deal and he would vf a -- would have a global reach. and a key adviser to barack obama, he was asked about this on "meet the press" and this is what he had to say about where the foundation should go. >> the clinton foundation does remarkable work, okay. all around the world. and think as long as there is the right transparency and accountability and those procedures are clear to the public, i think it is a huge at tribute to the world. >> it is undeniable and a universal fact that the clinton
foundation is a great addition to the global scene. >> in the end, just as a political matter, will the foundation be a liability to hillary clinton in this sort of muddy world of just throwing things at her by the conservative side. >> it will be a liability if people decide that the good work done by the clinton foundation aren't enough to trump all of the negative press, innuendo, false stories, loose stories about what the foundation actually does. >> well we either look forward or do not look forward to this continuing. thank you for being here from the clinton foundation. jonathan capehart will be back with us. and john mccain and debbie wasserman schultz all facing primary challenges on tuesday. we'll preview the races coming up next. our bodies react by overproducing 6 key inflammatory substances. most allergy pills onlyontrol 1.
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i do want to wish him a happy birthday. he is 80 on monday and i want to give him the best gift ever, the gift of retirement. >> and i see patients again and again over the last 25 years so i do know what happens to the body and the mind at the end of life. >> so shady. welcome to "am joy." this tuesday is primary day in arizona and florida and kelly ward came out swinging as you heard on thursday about the age of her opponent senator john mccain. but she is down, trailing 55% to 29% and in florida there are three big races to watch. and florida could weigh in on debbie wasserman schultz when she faces off tim canova. b debbie wasserman schultz is expected to win the primary with a ten-point lead.
in the race for marco rubio seat is shaping up. the likelihood of him facing off against murphy as a democratic contender has increased. the senator is beating his republican challenger beruff 61% to 22% and the congressman from florida, murphy has 55% and grayson has 22%. and in a showdown, it could determine rubio's next shot at the white house. and up next, a star's protest against racism in america. look at the other line... mm...mhh... that's why he starts his day with those two scoops... in deliciously heart healthy kellogg's raisin bran. ready to eat my dust? too bad i already filled up on raisins. by taking steps towards a healthy heart, jay knows he'll be ready for the turns ahead. hey don't forget to put up your kickstand. ring (bell) sighs. kellogg's raisin bran. and try kellogg's raisin bran crunch now with more crunchy clusters.
to green bay at the levi stadium on friday and said he would not, quote, stand up to show pride in a flag that oppresses black people and a people of color and added it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. there are bodies on the street and people getting paid leave and getting away from murder. the 49ers released their own statement said the team recognizes the right of an individual to participate or not in our celebration of the national anthem and back with me jonathan, jay and michelle. so very interesting protest. we do have a history, michelle, of athletes taking a stand. john carlos and tommy smith being the example in 1968 holding up the black power salute and not only about the oppression of african-american or black south africans. it is not something new but what do you make tv. >> it is not new but when athletes engage in this plate cal activism, more often than
not they pay a huge price for us but they tell us that they did the right thing and we saw that with the athletes at the olympics and one of them i read a quote this morning saying looking at this entire event with kaepernick -- kaepernick and said muhammad ali has to be smiling in his grave and i have to agree, he is bringing -- he is bringing social context to everything that is happening. and it is important, i think, as people call him biracial or african-american, i look at him as a person of color or a black man and it is important that we see black athletes speaking out on behalf of social justice. >> i interviewed tamira rice's mom and one of the criticism is she wants to see people like lebron james and black athletes stepping forward because they are so revered by the culture. >> and by white and black. >> and so you do have -- you have some people like dwyane wade, quite frankly, people
prominent and active in terms of black lives matter but not everyone and do you think this is an important step. >> it is an important step. but if i -- what i do, what -- if i do what he did -- no, because i would stand for the national anthem. but do i respect his decision to peace my protest and stand up for what he believes in, absolutely. and the fact that he did what he did, which then triggers us to talk about why he did what he did, which then forces us all of us, because everyone looks up to him and reveres him to talk about why did he do it and what is driving him and what is driving him as you read in his quote, black men and women who are being killed on america's streets and it doesn't seem like anything is being done to change that. and so i'm all for, when it comes to the -- the racial conversation that this country needs to have, i'm all for people doing things that force us to have that conversation. because for far too long, we
have avoided it. and a lot of it has to do with the fact there is no trust and that leads me to donald trump and the things he is doing only further divides us and doesn't allow us to trust each other to have the conversations. how can you -- how can we have a person running for president of the united states who has basically an avowed white supremacist as his campaign manager and i know i veered off but it is related. >> tbd it is related. because it is this idea of african-american patriotism that african-americans were expected to stand and salute the flag and be patriotic but they are valid for a patriot to have and gabby douglas who did stand for the national anthem but she didn't put her hand over her heart. she is not emoting enough about
this country and they could be the vikes of police involved violence because they are still black people in america. >> it is the expectation of silence. be grateful and proud to be american and don't criticize anything but i think it is important for athletes and celebrities to do this because when i covered the shooting of five police officers at the black lives matter rally, they said we want people to realize what it is like to be us or to walk our walk and to deal like -- what it is to be a black american. and if it means somebody coming out like colin kaepernick saying this is a bad problem because you are not realizing white americans, what it feels like it is important and it draw as t-- draws attention, gets people to think about, it is not the random people, the trump, like people living in the ghetto. >> and he is considered savage and --
>> and what he has done is so important because we hear the trump narrative this week that paints all african-americans as being poor, as being living in abject squalor and the stereotypes that go with that and you look at kaepernick and people will look at him and say he is not really black. he is biracial or the exception to the rule and if you read comments on social media saying how dare you be unpatriotic that it is america that has given you billions of dollars and given you a quarterback and he's showing you that only in america could you use use free speech and demonstrate to people who don't have african-americans that they come in every color and we are educated and athletes and lawyers and doctors and musicians and artists and all of us have a vested interest in --
>> and the same things were said about muhammed ally. >> or other athletes. >> and jonathan, you've seen people on the right attempt to take black lives matter and throw it in the bucket with things like breitbart and say they are just the opposite end of the coin and use it for politics. do you think that message starts to then take white america quite frankly who in the beginning were sympathetic to black lives matter and make that a wedge issue. >> i hope not. when it comes to black lives matter, i want everyone to understand that it is half of a phrase. think of it as half of a phrase. black lives matter -- as much as everyone else. and as we've seen in video after video after video, people being shot in the back, people being asked to get their driver's license and then being shot by a police officer. and people need to understand there is no comparison morally,
experien experience-ali and some coming from breitbart and people who are glumming off to the trump campaign as if he is their savior and will save the country for them. a country that has not existed for at least 20 years. >> and i think it is -- people think of it and there are a lot of people sort of in these alt-right movements that say black lives matter means only black lives matter but it means that black lives matter too. >> and so colin kaepernick has opened up a important conversation but he is not the only one. you had lebron james and anthony at the espys and that is important and the idea of brand is important in this election season. one might say that donald trump has hurt his brand quite considerably and the trump name doesn't even what it did to african-americans and what does this do to the kaepernick brand. >> in the short-term, it might
hurt in terms of endorsements. that is what i started thinking when i read the social media. but then when i think about where we are in the nation today, and just how divisive and divided we have and the nfl has not supported him and made i statement that you are not required by the rules to stand up for the national anthem it makes me believe he will be going down on the right side of the justice, not historically and it will elevate his brand. >> the nfl statement -- i took as a positive sign. they didn't throw him under the bus. and they actually gave him the space to basically keep doing what he's doing. >> muhammed ally was vilified but we look back and say good for him. tommy smith and john carlos were on the right side of history. we'll all be back in a moment. at the top of the hour, what new polling reveals about donald trump and hillary clinton and how third and fourth party candidates could change the
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time to find out what the next big headlines and stories will be of the week. i'm going to give you an option for maybe one of them. this is kellyanne conway who was just on fox news saying donald trump has some new plans in the works. take a listen. >> trump has been running for president, though, kellyanne, since june of 2015. that's 14 months. question, how many times has he gone into an american inner city and held an event for a largely black audience? >> i don't know the answer, but i can tell you there are some coming up. >> would you be surprised if the answer is none, never? >> no, i would not be surprised.
i will tell you, chris, and i pledge to you and everybody who's watching that those events are actually being planned and we're very excited about them. >> so could a potential headline, trump black outreach events postponed, because we still are waiting before those the melania trump press conference about her immigration status and his big speech on immigration. it's going to be after those two things. we'll see if this thing happens. we'll give you a chance to tell what you think the headlines will be. >> i don't know if you saw, but comedy central did a roast of rob lowe and the star of the show was not actually rob lowe, it ended up being anne coulter who bafflingly decided to show up probably to sell books. she sat for three hours and listen to this. she wants to help trump make america great. this is him talking to her, by wearing a burqa. you have a face that makes doves cry. that voice, it's like finger
nails on a chalk board in an inner school chalk board that you want to defund. if you are here, anne, who is scaring away the crows from our crops. >> it's like mean tweets. >> oh, my god. >> and it goes on and on. through the entire thing. >> three hours. >> that and donald trump ruining her book tour by changing his immigration policy 18 times on the day that she launched. >> she's not having a great week. >> wow, wow. okay. other than wow. what will be the next headline. jonathan, can you tweet that? >> jay read mean tweets. i don't know if you can top that. >> i can't top that. i'm going to bring it down to a more serious level. august 30th, tuesday, is primary day. and john mccain, senator mccain in arizona, we are going to find out whether the polls are right. will he eke out another victory or will he actually lose to a
woman who actually diagnosed him as being too old to be in the senate. >> can age shaming win you a senate primary. >> and chuck todd was great when he asked, wait, are you diagnosing senator mccain on national television? she said am i diagnosing him as an 80-year-old man? yes, i am. >> and then she wished him happy birthday for being 80. >> right. >> it's like age shaming. in arizona, one of the oldest states. >> right. so we'll see if she is successful. but august 30th is going to be an interesting day in the headline we'll be talking aut arizona. debbie wasserman schultz, congresswoman from florida, former chairwoman. democratic national committee also has a primary challenge. >> who could john mccain bring in to help him, because donald trump can't go. >> trump can't go, palin is not going to help. i'm not sure who could come in.
remember, john mccain is a stellar figure by himself, so who could you possibly bring in? >> generals. >> jesus. >> jesus is old too. okay. michelle. >> my headline is quite serious and not funny. but my headline for the week really is the question of whether or not facebook founder mark zuckerberg is going to publicly commit to a policy of anti-censorship further embracing the black lives movement. he has not been shy in his embrace of the black lives movement, but what we have seen recently following the august 1st death of corrine gaines in baltimore was what we learned is when the police decided to storm this young woman's apartment, you remember they were trying to serve her with an arrest warrant for missing a date in traffic court. she ended up dead. her 5-year-old son was injured. when the police decided they were going to storm her apartment, they called instagram, which is also owned
by zuckerberg, and said please stop the live feed that she is showing on instagram at this moment. >> the police did? >> the police did of the standoff. so civil rights activists are saying in the light of what happened to her, what happened to philandro castile that we are seeing censorship on facebook and instagram and social media could be o of the most important areas for social justice. with cameras and video and social media, that is how you can save lives and show why the black lives matter movement exists. >> and what's so interesting is -- that is frightening the prospects that police could reach out and try to turn off your opportunity to live stream what's happening interacting with them. >> and they did it. >> isn't there a question about technology that police could use to turn off your camera. i think there's a question about whether or not they can use iphone technology to intervene as someone is filming the police. this is a big moment being able to watch the police appears to be, it seems foundationally to be a right of citizens.
>> it's freedom of speech. i believe, as a lawyer speaking, that for the police to call instagram or facebook and say stop running this live feed when we believe that there is the possibility of something untoward that could happen, as we saw with this young woman, she's dead over a traffic violation. >> and the thing that people sometimes i think do forget is the police aren't the government. this is a foundational first amendment case because this is the government is what police are. >> and to rob you of your first amendment rights. really quickly, will donald trump give a speech in the african-american community in the next couple of weeks, jay? >> no. >> jonathan. >> to quote whitney houston, hell no. >> no. >> we will see. i think that he has to do it -- eventually he has to appear before an audience that is not all white. what happens when he does it will be interesting.
i doubt myself that he would actually give a speech in an urban center that is predominantly black, but we shall see. you guys are great, thank you very much. that is the end of our show today. "a.m. joy" will be back next saturday. up next,x witt takes a look at the upcoming presidential debates. will a third-party candidate share the stage with hillary clinton and donald trump? more news at the top of the hour. hey diddle diddle, the cat and the fiddle, the cow jumped over the moon... then quickly fell back to earth landing on the roof of a dutch colonial. luckily geico recently helped the residents with homeowners surance. they were able to get the roof repaired like new. they later sold the cow because they had all become lactose intolerant. call geico and see how much you could save on homeowners insurance. ♪
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♪ ♪ good day, everyone, i'm alex witt here at msnbc world headquarters in new york. it is high noon here at the east, 9:00 a.m. out west. here's what's happening. donald trump's camp facing new questions today about his outreach to minority voters. >> trump has been running for president, though, kellyanne, since june of 2015. that's 14 months. question, how many times has he gone into an american inner city and held an event for a largely black audience? >> that answer